Making It Big in 30 Minutes

Transcript: Episode 8, Paloma Valenzuela

Making It Big in 30 Minutes

Transcript: Episode 6

Paloma Valenzuela


Terri Trespicio:
What does it mean to make it big? Having money, fame, worldwide acclaim, climbing the corporate ladder or crushing it in your business. One thing's for sure, there isn't just one way to do it. Welcome to "Making It Big in 30 Minutes," a podcast for, by, and about the Emerson community. You're about to meet an Emersonian who's making it. Making a living, making a difference and sometimes making it up as they go along. As far as we're concerned, if you're making something, you've made it big time. I'm your host and Emerson alumna Terri Trespicio and we've got 30 minutes. So let's get started.

Terri Trespicio:
Today you have a choice. You can either hear from a funny and vibrant actor, writer and director named Paloma Valenzuela or I can read Paloma's list of recognitions and awards because we don't have time for both. We only have 30 minutes. Okay. You'd rather hear from Paloma. Good choice. But let me at least tell you who she is.

Terri Trespicio:
Paloma studied writing for film and television and graduated Emerson in 2009. A Dominican American writer, director, and actress, she's the creative director of La Gringa Loca Productions. You may have heard of a little series she created and produced called The Pineapple Diaries, which made its debut in 2015. It's a comedy web series featuring a group of Dominican women living their lives out loud in Jamaica Plain in Boston. That series got a lot of attention. Still does and was featured in Latina Magazine's "5 Web Series Every Latinx Needs to Watch Right Now." She's currently launching season three.

Terri Trespicio:
Paloma is originally from Boston, and she lives there now and loves it fiercely. And Boston loves her too. She is the recipient of the 2016 Creative City Grant, 2018 City of Boston Opportunity Grant and the 2019 City of Boston Artist Fellowship. And that is all the time we have for her awards right now. But trust me, there are more.

Terri Trespicio:
Paloma's got some strong and heartfelt opinions about what it means to make things for a living, to make art that matters and ensures that all voices are heard and making sure she finds joy in everything she does. I give you Paloma Valenzuela on making it as an artist.

Terri Trespicio:
You made a name for yourself with your comedic web series The Pineapple Diaries, of course. I mean, you look at the list of awards and recognition in general for you, but also for this particular project, alone could wrap around Boston twice. My mind's blown. I'm like, wow. She must be like, wow, I'm good now. I achieved everything with one project. Did how that particular project was received surprise you at all? Were you like, yeah, this is what I wanted?

Paloma Valenzuela:
It's so funny. Everything that you just said, just because it's just like I'm very grateful for everything and being able to do what I do and having the community behind the show and just everything about it is totally the joy of my life. You have to be on the outside looking in because when you're in it, you don't see all your accomplishments. You just think about all the more things that you want to do or that you need to do.

Paloma Valenzuela:
So I didn't. No, I really didn't expect it. I think that I had so many maybe expectations outside of... From after graduating college, in terms of what the path needed to be for me in terms of trying to find an agent or manager, selling your scripts, that whole timeline. And it didn't happen for me that way. I think a lot of it was I decided to move to D.R. for a year after college. And then when I came back, I moved to New York for the New York dream. And I guess I just felt like there was something that made me decide that I wanted to just go ahead and create on my own.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I still hope to be able to produce with a bigger budget, with a network backing. I still desire all of those things, but there's no reason to not create before you have those things. And I guess it took me after graduating and a year after that to be like, I can really do this. Especially with a platform like YouTube, where I think people are more forgiving. I think there's more of an expectation of what a production quality for film is or a production quality for a full-length television series on HBO. So when you're watching YouTube, you're really just enjoying what the content is. What's the writing, the acting. The things that I feel like I have a grasp on because I didn't have a multimillion-dollar budget. We had just a couple thousand dollars for the first season.

Paloma Valenzuela:
But what I did have was... I had a story that I wanted to tell. I had the time and energy to create the characters for it. And I had an amazing group of actors who were willing to collaborate with me who were amazingly talented all on their own and brought the characters to life. So I guess I had no expectations except to just create, just because I feel like maybe I was tired of all the expectations that were being down on me.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes, because that is the old way. This idea that you have to go this traditional route to be an actor or a director or whatever, and that it has to be blessed by these other powers in one of two cities. And that is what we're told and really what had been the tale of how someone makes it in your industry, but that's all changed because we all have relatively cheaper, free, the tools for creating content now. And so you're a perfect example of that, that you can make something on your own and have it be recognized by industry without having to go through the gauntlet of industry. And it's a bold move and it's a critical move because of course you're influencing and inspiring other artists.

Terri Trespicio:
Let's back up to Emerson for a second because when you started your college career at Emerson, did you think you had a clear path of like, well, first I want to be an actor. Then I want to do that. Did you have it in your mind or were you discovering it as you went?

Paloma Valenzuela:
I went to arts high school. I went to the Boston Arts Academy, and I was a theater major. So when I was 13 years old or even earlier than that, but certainly entering high school, I was like, I want to be an actress. This is what I want to do is act.

Terri Trespicio:
So you knew that, that's what you knew.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Yeah. And I knew that before I knew I even wanted to be a writer because it took taking writing classes at Boston Arts Academy to decide that I was interested in not only writing, playwriting, dramatic writing and film and video production, all in one. So I was encouraged and felt inclined to continue my education in college in the realm of writing as opposed to acting not because I was letting go of acting. I just felt like if I was going to spend my time, I might as well spend it doing something I don't know enough about like screenwriting.

Terri Trespicio:
That's very forward-thinking. Most people go to what they're actually good at already, so they can feel good in what they're doing and feel their someone. You said, hey, here's something I don't know anything about really. Were you thinking so far ahead as you were like, I will have more career options if I have more skills?

Paloma Valenzuela:
I definitely think that it occurred to me. Well, I did a New York University Tisch Summer Program, and that was my first experience ever looking at script format. And so I think that that's what made me start to fall in love with the concept of it just because I really enjoyed it. I probably thought to myself that this is what I wanted to do because it felt like I could... I don't know. I guess maybe a part of me was starting to become disillusioned toward the end of high school about casting and auditions and the amount of roles that are available for women like me.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And so I just thought to myself that I would like to be the one creating the characters and doing that. And I think a part of it was that, and then a part of it was, I feel like if I'm going to spend money and debt and all of this stuff, I want to really... I took all the writing classes at Emerson. I took 60-minute drama. I took 30-minute comedy, feature-length workshop. Every single writing class there was at Emerson, I took it because I wanted to utilize and capitalize on my time there.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And I also feel today I'm 32 years old. If acting doesn't work out for me, God willing, if I'm 70 or 80, I feel like... Not that you can't be an actor at 70 or 80, but there was a longevity to it, God willing. And so I think I probably thought about all of that stuff. I overthink everything. So I'm sure I thought about all of it.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, it's really smart, but also what you said too. It's not even just roles for say women of color, whatever, but roles for women, period. What you realize I'm sure, I'm not an actor, but that there's casting calls and that there's certain types that you have to fit for what is being written now. And it's very status quo. And you can imagine that someone who has a desire to change that conversation, it's not enough to just audition for the role someone else writes. And so I imagine there was I am assuming part of that in you because being the writer means you get to change the conversation and you rarely get to change that conversation as an actor.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Right. I think that I was probably also disillusioned, although I very much enjoyed my last semester in Los Angeles. And I also love the city of Los Angeles for sure. I probably felt a little disillusioned by the makeup of some of the productions that I saw.

Terri Trespicio:
Oh my God, I'm sure.

Paloma Valenzuela:
What does on camera and behind camera look like in the productions that I interned on in LA? I feel like you don't feel that you belong. There's an importance about on camera, but it's so important also behind the camera. Diversity in every form. The writers, the directors, and I hope for so many things in this country, but in terms of entertainment, I hope that even the ones making the decisions and it's not just the writers and the actors and the crew members, but the ones making the decisions that they also make up a different look than what they're like now.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And so I feel like the reason I was like, well, if I pitch an idea about a show in Boston, first of all, which the gatekeepers decided isn't as interesting as the major cities. And I pitched an idea about a show that's based in Boston with a cast of Dominican American women, I can only imagine that their reaction would be it's too nichey. Only Dominican's would watch this. All of those components, which to me don't feel like they're barriers at all.

Paloma Valenzuela:
These are characters with stories, and we're women of color. It's really not too complicated when I looked at it. But on the outside, the ones that are making the decisions, I just feel like I didn't want to wait for someone to tell me no and just create the story that I had in my heart and in my head and make it happen for myself.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, one of the things it's been called, part of the reason why it's been so celebrated in Boston is because it's considered, like you said, maybe not niche necessarily, but hyperlocal. Boston has a vibrant arts community and people creating things and just like any thriving arts community, they have a lot more people creating things there. And I think it's an important message to send that art doesn't just happen in New York and L.A., and it doesn't just happen with certain kinds of people who look a certain way. You must feel a certain sense of Boston pride also because you're from there.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Oh yeah. I totally rep my city hard. I love the individuality of so many different cities. And so, my choice to create here isn't because I don't agree with artists that decide to head over to New York or L.A. I think that they're also really exciting places to live and work, but I just feel like Boston is a city that, at the moment, is supporting its artists. I think making an intentional decision to support its artists and artists of color. I know that we have a long way to go, but my thing is, it looks different now than when I was in high school let me just say because I've lived here all my life.

Paloma Valenzuela:
So the support that I feel from my city and from the arts community here is such a beautiful thing. I feel like we're like a family, all the artists living and working here in Boston. I feel like we all kind of know each other and support each other. And yeah, it's a beautiful time to be creating art in Boston. And I feel grateful for it all the time that I decided to stay.

Terri Trespicio:
I think it's terrific.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I'm very proud of this city. And also, I don't know what happened with the marketing of the city of Boston, but I really think that people outside of Boston don't understand that there are communities of color in the city.

Terri Trespicio:
That's true, though. They don't. They think of it as just all white.

Paloma Valenzuela:
For many of us Boston residents of color, we don't recognize the city as that. We know our neighborhoods. We know, I think many would say the other Boston or for me, the Boston that feels real to me, which is communities of color in the vibrant neighborhoods, Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, Jamaica Plain, and artists of color because I've been basically an artist, I guess, all my life but I would say, I definitely feel like I've been a part of the Boston arts community since starting at Boston Arts Academy and I've continued ever since.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And so if the show in any way can highlight that and not necessarily in the stories... There are a couple artists in the stories, but the joy that we have in collaborating with other Boston artists in the show, even if they just do a cameo or they share their writing, it's like that's really all I could ever ask for. And that's what really brings us a lot of joy creating the show. It's not just us doing it. It's not just me and the actors creating it. It's like, we're really trying to involve the local businesses if they would allow us to film in their spaces, showing Boston, the murals and the neighborhoods and collaborating with other artists in Boston in the show.

Terri Trespicio:
To someone like you, who's obviously not only artistic but has vision and has a mission and feels connected to her community, what comes first here in terms of chicken or egg when we think about arts and mission? This is kind of tricky, but I'm very curious to hear what you think.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I think that's really an interesting question. I think that I am a very intentional... I do believe that my art is intentional. I do feel like whether it's about relationships, love, social issues, current events, I'm very inspired by things that are happening around me. I don't try to shy away from it. I want to talk about this stuff. So I think in terms of wanting to express things that are going on, current events and things that are important to me in our society and things that are moving in that sense, I do choose to do that. And even with comedy, I know comedy... I like just laughing, but I also think that if there's something that we can talk about that's serious and use comedy to confront the issue, I've always been interested in that.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I guess I've always felt like there's a purpose to what I do. And I always felt like that. Especially since starting writing at Boston Arts Academy. If I'm going to write something, I'm going to write something that I feel like is... I have some intention behind it. To me or to my community, to my surroundings, things like that. In terms of saying, okay, I want to do this because it's like a movement. Honestly, no. I haven't thought that way. The only things I could tell you is that I could see there's a lacking in something and I felt empowered to address that lacking.

Paloma Valenzuela:
For instance, for me, I'm interracial Dominican American, and I lived in Dominican Republic for five years and I feel like it's easy to note that the country is 90%, if not more black. This is a black country. And yet when you see billboards, when you see oftentimes the movies or television, when you look at the portrayals of Latinx, and even in the Dominican Republic, who's selling your soda pop, it's going to be a white Dominican, a light-skinned Latinx actor or model.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And it's true. We come all in different shapes and sizes and colors, and that's absolutely true, but I find it incredibly misleading that isn't even the reality or makeup of what my group of girlfriends look like or what my cousins look like. When I don't see my group of girlfriends or my cousins on screen, I feel like there's a huge void and lacking there in terms of representation.

Paloma Valenzuela:
So, I made a choice. I said, if I'm going to create a show about Dominican Americans, they're not all going to look like me. And they're not all going to be Sofía Vergara type. I was just going to literally take who my group of girlfriends are and put them on the screen. I'm not going to appease to some of American concept of what Latinx is and celebrate literally what we look like.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And I even decided to have my character be interracial because I think that there has always been a feeling like I didn't know where I belonged. And then being older, I realized, I belong right where I am. This is who I am. I am that. And I can play that myself. And we can just do that, take my group of girlfriends or my cousins as inspiration and take my city as inspiration. And whether it be trials and tribulations in my life, or love life and stories from my family, histories from my family, or from the families of anyone who's contributing to the writing in the show, let's just put that in the show.

Paloma Valenzuela:
So it was definitely intentional, but I would have never imagined being a part of Boston arts movement, the connections that people have had with the show and the reaction that people have had with the show. I guess I thought and hoped people would love it, but I didn't say, okay, this is it. This is going to be my make or break moment in my career.

Terri Trespicio:
Well, those are the best kind. It kind of took you by surprise. So to what extent do you think you feel accountable or in some ways responsible for making sure specifically women of color have their work seen, heard and recognized? Obviously you said it's intentional, you picked people that you knew you wanted to be featured, but does that make you feel really empowered or does it add a level of pressure? Like you're now responsible for how much attention they get and everything. Is that a lot of pressure or...?

Paloma Valenzuela:
Oh my gosh. I don't know if I feel pressure yet. I think that it's easy for creators of color to feel pressure to represent their communities.

Terri Trespicio:
That's a lot of pressure. Like you have to represent everyone.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Right. And I think that that is something that I understand. I understand it. And I do understand the weight that when you see something that represents your community on TV or the movies, you want to love it and you want it to be everything. And so I do understand it and I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself, but I also understand the other side that we're feeding into. I think we're feeding very much into the quote-unquote "white supremacy" mainstream concept that the white character is the all-around everyman character.

Terri Trespicio:
He's the everyman, yes, the universal.

Paloma Valenzuela:
All of us characters of color have to fit into this box and I think that when we put too much pressure on a creator of color to be the end-all-be-all, we're not letting them be the artists that white people get to be. Not that we need to be like white people, but I feel like it's the idea that we're feeding into the there can only be one kind of thing.

Terri Trespicio:
That's right. The risk and the danger of one story is really the...

Paloma Valenzuela:
I think female rappers, when we start pitting them against each other, what we're saying is that there can only be one.

Terri Trespicio:
One, that's right.

Paloma Valenzuela:
[inaudible 00:21:01] masculine dominated music industry or hip hop industry. And we should reject that. We should not. And I'm so excited to see so many female rappers. And I just feel like I hope that the days of pitting them against each other is over because... Not that I'm a female rapper, but I'm just thinking when we're talking about putting pressure on our creators of color, I think that we're stunting their growth and a lot of girls of color might feel discouraged because they don't want all that weight on their shoulders.

Terri Trespicio:
We have to have more. We need more people to create so that there isn't.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Let creators of color just create and tell their stories.

Terri Trespicio:
That's right. Think about how many handsome white leading men there are. So many. No one's making us pick between like Jake Gyllenhaal and like Ryan Gosling, No one said, well, you got to pick one. So why... You're right. The pitting against each other is the minimizing of the view. It says there can just be one. And the answer to that is not to pick one it's to have so many that it doesn't actually matter.

Terri Trespicio:
You've been doing this... You weren't born yesterday. You've been working on your art and your content for years and years, and you've started to gain a lot of visibility, recognition and success. And would you say that the things that are like, hey, you're a success, do you measure success in awards and recognition for you personally? Or is it not that? How do you feel that you're making it in the field you want to make it?

Paloma Valenzuela:
That's so interesting because I feel like I've come to... I'm not perfect. I have moments where I'm like I wish I had Cardi B status, or I wish I had [inaudible 00:22:50] money. I wish I had this. I definitely feel like there are moments where I say I haven't done enough or I'm not good enough based on the socially constructed concepts of what a successful artist is. That stuff can get to me sometimes.

Paloma Valenzuela:
But for the most part, especially, which is interesting, I feel like just when I started... Being in Boston Magazine or any of the awards that I've received thus far, I feel like it was during this time, maybe even just a couple years ago, that I came to the conclusion that all of that stuff is bullshit because it's like... Not that it's bullshit. It's super special. And honestly, I feel like anyone who works hard in this business, I absolutely get why they want an Academy Award. Like, hello. If I got one, even though I totally disagree with the whole system. I just feel like they [inaudible 00:23:47] so many amazing things and-

Terri Trespicio:
You'd still show up.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I will be there and I will be very excited. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me and think I'm being snooty about all of that super spectacular stuff that I know bring a lot of... People work hard for this, so I'm here for that. But I think that for the artists that feel that they are not successful because they do not [inaudible 00:24:13] a magazine cover. They don't have millions of followers on Instagram. They don't have hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube. They don't have the Academy Award or the Golden Globe, or they don't have this, and they don't have that. So they are a wash. They are a has-been.

Paloma Valenzuela:
I would address those artists and say that those are not the factors of success. If what you're doing doesn't bring you joy because you don't have those things, then I think you're missing the point. If you are an artist and you're able to do your art, and I feel very grateful that I get to do this full time as a freelance artist, but even if you're not doing it full time, you have a nine to five job and on the weekends you're going to rehearsals for community theater performance, and you're doing community theater and you're playing different roles and you're being challenged and you're sharing your art with your community. My God, that is success. Isn't that success?

Paloma Valenzuela:
When you set out to do something in any other field, say you want to be... And I understand that there are probably levels to what success looks like in this field, so I don't know anything about like law but let's say you want to be a lawyer. You study. You pass the bar and you can be a lawyer now. And then you just start like lawyering. You are a success because you're doing the thing you said you were going to do. Now, I understand that some people want to be partners and there's maybe skills to how much money you're making and all that stuff. Fine. I don't know anything about that world, but let's just say in comparison to art, people don't look at the artist who's doing it as being successful, unless they have all of those things.

Paloma Valenzuela:
In fact, you could be at dinner with your family for the holidays or something like that and you have to explain to everyone what you're doing and no one's excited until you say you got this deal, or you got that deal, or you're about to be on Netflix, or you're about to be on HBO. And to me, it's like, it should be exciting before all that stuff. Just the fact that you can say, look, I'm painting and I'm creating, and I have a podcast and I'm sharing and I'm... Whatever it is that you're doing that is allowing you to be expressive and enjoy creating, to me is success because you set out to do something and you're doing it.

Terri Trespicio:
And you're doing it. Yes. And so Paloma, what do you say to people who are like, wow, look at this cool thing. She just did it. She didn't wait for someone to tell her to do it. She just made it. She created it. She did it on her own with the help of friends and support and some resources, but not a huge budget. And someone goes, wow, cool. Especially post... Well, I'd like to say post-pandemic. We're not out of it yet. Even by the time this hits the airways, it will probably still be looming over us.

Terri Trespicio:
The fact is that whole shakedown this year has brought us down to the basics of production. Everyone is doing production in the most bare way, via Zoom, via YouTube videos, all that stuff. So in a great way, it's democratized production. So now it really is the writing that matters. Now, it really is the performance that matters because we can't rely on fancy production to make it for us. In my mind, that would be a reason for people to say, well, maybe now is a chance I can make something, but someone will look at you and go, oh, she already did all this already. There's so much content. Should I bother? What do you say to them?

Paloma Valenzuela:
Oh, boy. Honestly, gosh. I feel like I understand that feeling so much. You're seeing so much content out there and you're thinking to yourself, what's the point? Why should I-

Terri Trespicio:
Did you feel that way when you were doing yours?

Paloma Valenzuela:
The thing is I had no expectations. I look now and I say, wow, we almost have 2,000 followers. And I'm excited about that. But I also sometimes have moments where I'm like 2,000 followers? What about the people that have a hundred thousand followers?

Terri Trespicio:
But they'll always be a bigger number.

Paloma Valenzuela:
That's the way it is. Right. But I think about it, but no, but to bring my feet back on the ground I think to myself, wait a second, though, when you started, you had zero subscribers. Zero people knew what you were doing or what this was. I guess what I would say to people that feel that kind of overwhelmed feeling of what's the point is there's always a point and there's always room for... There really is. Especially now there is room for everyone.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And I guess what I would say is you shouldn't base the success of what you're doing as the outcome of a million followers are getting this or getting that or reaching that milestone. You should approach your project with the thought that this will be successful because I'm going to learn from it. This will be successful because I'm going to grow through the process. This will be successful because I'm going to enjoy the process. Instead of saying this will be successful because I'm going to get a million followers after this. Then you're not going to be happy when it doesn't happen.

Paloma Valenzuela:
But if you set out and say, I'm going to learn from this. I'm going to grow from this. I am going to finish X amount of writing projects because I'm deciding to do this project and put it on this platform. And here you are, and you've finished doing it and you have this work up and you finished doing it and you learn from it and grew from it. It's going to bring you joy and it's going to be something that will help you in your journey and your craft and all of that stuff.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And all that stuff has so much value. Sometimes even more value than just those numbers of followers or whatever it might be. If you have a hundred people watching what you're doing, if you have 50 people watching what you're doing, you're connecting with 50 people. That is a big deal. And you don't know how much that might have ignited their creative juices. You don't know how much they're going to feel connected with what you're doing or feel not alone because they're seeing something that they can relate with. Every single person that views what you do is so important.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And so, yeah, I would say do it, if you're inclined to do it, create something or start your platform on YouTube or Instagram or wherever it might be. Do it.

Terri Trespicio:
Yeah. I think you are the spirit of what making it really is, Paloma, because you're like just make it and the idea of making it not to hit a certain number or an award or an income while everyone will always want more of everything. That is an impossible thing to top. And so knowing that and knowing that that isn't a metric for you, in your heart how will you know that yes, I really made it or have you already? I think you have, but what do you think?

Paloma Valenzuela:
Oh my gosh, that's such a hard question. It's a beautiful question because I think that a lot of artists should ask themselves this just in case they ever feel... If they ever have a moment of feeling discouraged or feeling low about themselves, I feel like they should ask this question to themselves and I feel like I ask it all the time.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Me saying that I appreciate and feel so grateful for all of the success I've had so far and enjoying it, doesn't take away from my drive to keep going. I don't need to feel inadequate now in order to keep going. I feel like I can enjoy and feel proud of the work that we've done in our show and all of the projects that I've done and feel proud of the work and creativity and acting and writing that I've done up to this point and enjoy it.

Paloma Valenzuela:
And at the same time being excited for the next thing or the next challenge. I just feel like it's important not to look at it like that. Like, oh, well, I'm not going to just settle for this. This isn't enough or whatever. Just because you can enjoy whatever success you have now doesn't mean you're not still looking towards the future, and so I think you can have both.

Terri Trespicio:
I love that. Thank you for that. That was perfect. That's a great note to end on, that you can have both. Really great.

Paloma Valenzuela:
The important part is enjoying the process. I think sometimes when we're looking towards all of these exterior outcomes, we're forgetting about how much joy we can obtain and fulfillment that we have from doing our art in the process.

Terri Trespicio:
Yes. Fantastic.

Paloma Valenzuela:
Thank you.

Terri Trespicio:
Terrific. You nailed it. You fucking nailed it.

Terri Trespicio:
"Making It Big in 30 Minutes" is a production of Emerson College, bringing innovation to communication and the arts. Sponsored by the Emerson College Office of Alumni Engagement and supported by the alumni board of directors. Our theme music was written by Phantoms and Avocado Junkie. For more information about the alumni association, please visit emerson.edu/alumni, where you can also find bonus material from the show. I'm Terri Trespicio. Thanks for listening.